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 Ancient IGNOLand
Esjitu
 Posted: Dec 14 2014, 04:52 PM
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So for a while there have been little bits and pieces that come up in discussions that make me wonder - what was IGNOLand like in ancient times?

I've got to do some tweaking to the History thread (after Christmas Story is done) but my thinking right now is thus: when we say MTS destroyed the world and SG2 rebuilt it, the planet did not get destroyed (which is how the current version of the History makes it seem) but more like...it was a cataclysm on a tremendous scale. Think about what wiped out the dinosaurs IRL. Obviously the world kept turning and new life evolved, but it was nonetheless a huge thing that killed off a huge percentage of the planet's population, directly or indirectly (climate change, food shortage, etc). Basically MTS' last-ditch attack was on that scale - it was something that did immeasurable damage to the planet, but it didn't destroy it. Then SG2 harnessed the power of the Rainbow to sort of 'restart' the planet's heart, like a defibrillator or something, I dunno.

My point is this - there are probably still remnants left from the time before that cataclysm. Ancient ruins and temples, books written in languages long dead and forgotten...maybe even some primitive species who managed to cling to life and are surviving out in the remote depths of IGNOLand away from civilization. And I think that sort of ancient stuff would be cool to think about, and potentially explore in the future.

Main thing we need to figure out is a sort of rough time frame - I've been vastly inconsistent in my own mind (and writings) as to how much time passed between the destruction and present day. It may be simple to say it's been 2014 years (or maybe a little higher, like round it up a few decades to a century, however long it would take people to restart civilization and (re?)invent the calendar), so that we can just use the real world calendar for IGNOLand. Anything before year 1 is IGNOLand's equivalent of BC, which consists of all that pre-calendar stuff and the mysterious 'before' history pre-cataclysm. Maybe we label it as BGW - Before Gaylian War. But the vast majority of that BGW history is LOST - for the most part no one knows what the world was like before the Gaylian War. But the remnants of that time have provided us with some ancient conspiracies and secrets - the underground Library probably predates and survived the cataclysm, if only because I need to make sure my 'thousands of years of Santa history' thing still makes sense. I dunno the timeline would really need to be ironed out a lot because I'm terrible at this.

But LG and I have talked about and made semi-canon things like there being ruins and ancient elemental gemstones...and the thought that prompted this thread was me thinking about how we have so much odd German terminology in IGNOLand. Maybe German was the global language in ancient times, but in the modern era only some key words (like our ruler titles) have survived what is otherwise a dead language very few scholars can understand from the ancient writings. NOTE THAT THIS DOES NOT MEAN IGNOLAND EVER HAD A 'GERMANY'. It's no different than the fact that we all inexplicably speak English, we'd just be basing our 'ancient language' on another real-world one that logically has no place in our fictitious world. Don't think about it too hard.

So what other things do you think about the ancient times of IGNOLand? Did we for the most part follow a similar path of human(oid) history and civilization as the real world? How can we establish a rough timeline? If it's been less than 3000 years then how far did the human(oid) race(s) get shot back to primitive ways of life before civilization got back on track? And going even further back, beyond the time immediately before and during the Gaylian War (when humans walked the earth), did IGNOLand also have things like dinosaurs in the ancient ancient past? There's a ton to explore here, I just don't know where to begin.
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Karma
 Posted: Dec 14 2014, 05:20 PM
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Well I don't know too much on the overall world history, but I know the castle I live in in Blood Country is pretty ancient. It was there long before I got there and had some stuff stored away in it that was also very, very old--most importantly the blood virus that ended up vamp-ing me, but I suspect there might be other historical artifacts or remnants that were in it too (or could even still be hidden in it. It's an old castle and those things are full of weird secret passages and I've only been there a few years).

Since my country is also majorly populated by zombies, it would seem reasonable that at some point some sort of mass plague happened in the past too. Maybe something like the Black Death happened in IGNO, either BGW or after, devastating a vast portion of the population and changing a number of them into zeds? Zombies are often associated with apocalypses either way in most stories, so I suspect those things are heavily connected to the IGNO cataclysm one way or another.

Also this whole idea sounds a bit Adventure Time-y, so maybe inspiration can be drawn from that too? I've always loved how in that show you might see destroyed cars or totalled skyscrapers in the background but it's just...background, nobody really associates it with anything anymore. Perhaps the landscape is still dotted with things like these, remnants of a former civilization that means nothing to us anymore.

~VelkynKarma
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Lemmy
 Posted: Dec 14 2014, 09:30 PM
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I'm going to be somewhat lazy right now and simply state that Mertopia has the White Sea, a place of ancient ruins that predates Mertopia and very likely is a remnant of the World Before in some fashion. A temple rests there... it probably hasn't been explored since the New Age began. Such temples likely exist scattered all over IGNOLand...
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MrBones
 Posted: Dec 15 2014, 03:36 AM
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Ancient IGNOLand is clearly why the rulers all take german titles, we must be on some secret germanic ruins. in character we hold to reasons unknown, but clearly the rulers are well aware, like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN3ZHJoFHmA
except more zany and full of offbeat shenanigans and I'm pretty sure we don't broadcast it out to our subjects all willy nilly.

while my buildings are new, my ship is not, it survived in a giant cave hidden away from the time BGW.
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Esjitu
 Posted: Jan 6 2015, 05:58 PM
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So I have been thinking about the legendary Elemental Temples hidden throughout IGNOLand...beware my extremely video game-centered mindset. All pictures are just stuff I grabbed from Google Images for the sake of atmosphere.

(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/D6e5SQn.jpg)
(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/XN6sviM.jpg)

The Fire Temple would probably be somewhere near Reese's Roost. The temple itself is probably out on a small piece of land floating in the middle of a huge lava lake, or something, which is why so few have ever seen it (even if you can somehow stand the extreme heat, I wager most don't care to swim in lava). It's probably built right into a volcano so some areas seem more natural while others are clearly man-made. Lava pools errywhere, flame geysers shooting up, rickety bridges somehow not deteriorating to the point of unusable (though they're probably very likely to conveniently snap right as you walk halfway across!!), the usual. The monsters roaming the volcano must be extremely used to the heat, so you're probably likely to find fire elementals and dvergar.

(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/OPOcYBn.jpg)
(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/Fd0yxwJ.jpg)

The Ice Temple probably starts off inside a frozen cavern, but as you go deeper in you find more and more man-made structures, less ruined the deeper in you go. It's most likely located at the base of the mountains in the Ice Plains, perhaps near the village of Azaran's tribe, but it's so cold in there that only the bravest - or most foolish - would dare venture inside. Inside there are probably polar bears. Hungry polar bears. I also feel like there'd be a lot of ice mirrors all over the place, like a frozen funhouse, but they trick you and there are lots of false doors and other illusions in there.

(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/gYPLJLD.jpg)
(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/XFQt9qF.jpg)

The Metal Temple, I think, is on Bradios Banks...except it was on Bradios Banks before it was Bradios Banks. Bradios tells that he supplied the landmass with the tech that let it ascend into the air, but I feel like he may be hiding something - what if the technology was already there when he found it, and he just repaired/enhanced it? I feel like the Metal Temple would be a strange mashup between ancient ruins and also technologically advanced in ways we can't match in modern times...like steampunk in a way, but more ancient than Victorian-influenced. Probably lots of gears and pistons and stuff, and machines powered by means we can't comprehend. It's hard not to go all 'Zelda ripoff' when talking about elemental-themed dungeons but I envision something kinda like the Mining Facility in Skyward Sword - ancient technology lost to the modern world but still functioning. Enemies are probably just regular monsters found elsewhere in IGNOLand, empowered by the Metal Gem inside the temple...so they're all armored and shit. You know, when you pick up the Metal Mario item in Smash Bros and get coated in metal? Like that.

(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/LiazyJb.jpg)
(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/dB8KGHh.jpg)

The Wind Temple was the only one I could think of to put in the jungle...because there has to be a jungle temple. I really want a jungle temple. So, yeah. It's in the depths of the largely-unexplored tropical jungles in southern IGNOLand, and is full of all those staple Indiana Jones temple tropes...all kinds of traps and very Mayan-esque architecture. Also wind puzzles and traps, like where you're blown backwards by giant fans or have to solve a lot of jump puzzles without getting blown off platforms and stuff like that. Because it needs to be wind-themed somehow. Maybe it stretches high above the treetops and into the clouds? Except then you'd be able to see it from literally everywhere in IGNOLand so maybe not...the monsters who live in the temple are probably primarily flying things, like tropical monster birds and other flying things. That shoot spears. You gotta have spears in a jungle temple. It's the rule.

(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/UgNSkUw.jpg)
(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/bdMG9Uh.jpg)

The Forest Earth Temple is hidden deep inside the Lost Wayward Woods. It's very natural - overgrown with plants and vines. Some of the plants like the taste of human flesh. Or humanoid flesh. Point is, they enjoy eating lost IGNOites who wander too deep into the woods. Also there are Wayward Wolves because I've mentioned Wayward Wolves in the Bracken RP and they're totally not Wolfos. Instead of having floors that go up, you probably descend downward into the depths of the temple, underground. There are Shrubbery Dwarves down there. Also probably pitfalls on the upper levels that drop you down into lower rooms. Except not the rooms you want to go to. Rooms full of Wayward Wolves. Puzzles in the dungeon would be more nature-themed than earth-as-in-soil themed, I think. Digging talents such as my own would probably be useful...though with my sense of direction we'd likely wind up in the rooms full of Wayward Wolves anyways.

(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/VCeGFzw.jpg)
(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/J6YHPTS.jpg)

The Lightning Temple is somewhere in Australia, and is a huuuuuge tower that goes up and up for who knows how long. For some reason, it's always raining in the area around the temple, regardless of the weather elsewhere...there's a constant thunderstorm raging, most likely generated by the Lightning Gem. The tower's windows are just big arched holes so the wind and rain are always blowing inside. Also there are lots of parts of the tower where you have to run along an outside passage to reach the next room, just because you need the ever-present danger of being struck by lightning. The higher you go, the more dangerous it gets. The monsters who lurk in the temple are extremely dangerous and they're probably also shooting lightning at you all the time. And with all the time you have to spend exposed to the rain, that's pretty bad news. Lightning Elementals love it here and rumor has it that they live somewhere in the upper floors.

(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/HeqGqUJ.jpg)
(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/J7La3x3.jpg)

The Water Temple is deep within the White Sea of Mertopia, and because it's a water temple the rules of elementally-themed dungeons say it has to be the biggest pain in the ass of them all. Puzzles probably involve operating switches that raise and lower the water level in different sections because that's also in the rules. It's huge and labyrinthine so you'll get lost, a lot. Despite being deep in the sea, much of the temple is dry...but that doesn't mean it's necessarily accommodating to land-lubbers. There are definitely sections you have to swim through, so hopefully you're really good at holding your breath. Enemies are probably your standard deep sea terrors like angler fish and Cthulhu. No merfolk, though, they're not even sure the temple really exists so most likely few have ever seen it (and those who do are probably the usual crackpot conspiracy nuts and quickly dismissed). They say that the soul of an Ancient exists in this temple, but no one knows if that's true.

(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/BvJdyuC.jpg)
(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/Q5tpTqr.jpg)

The Shadow Temple is deep within the Dreadwoods of the Blood Country, so it's like equal parts Spooky Forest and Haunted Castle. Most likely the temple was built around the same time period as the castle Karma claimed when she moved in, but the temple is so deep in the extremely dark and dangerous woods that I doubt even she has seen it. Of course the enemies would mostly be your usual ghouls, restless spirits and undead...but unlike the (somewhat) civilized ones Karma presides over, the ones who lurk the temple are 100% malevolent and probably eager to drain you of all your blood. And then turn you. Probably all the enemies in the temple are just wanderers who got lost and were unfortunate enough to wind up there. It's awfully lonely in that temple, won't you stay a while?

(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/DNjrdpu.jpg)
(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/9cYH8wn.png)

The Light Temple is hidden in the PENIS Desert...legend has it that it never stays in one place, and is always moving, but others say it doesn't exist and those are just mirages. No one has actually ventured inside and come out to tell the tale. I don't know how to describe what I envision for a Light Temple besides a ripoff of the Spirit Temple (with a dash of Arbiter's Grounds. Or like any movie/game that involves exploring pyramids and Egyptian tombs). There are probably basement levels but I imagine it's a bit tower-like because it was built to honor the Sun - so while it's probably not as tall as the Lightning Temple it probably does get pretty well up there. Most of the puzzles probably involve shining light on things, or inserting sun and moon-shaped pendants into pedestals and stuff like that. Most likely there are mummies. And scorpions. And snakes.

(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/Lt4xQBF.jpg)
(IMG:http://i.imgur.com/XSe04gZ.jpg)

Finally there is probably a Rainbow Temple hidden somewhere, but it requires all the gems from the other temples to enter...most likely it either exists in, or transports you to, the Rainbow Realm once you enter. There's no Rainbow Gem, but there's probably something good in there...or something really really bad that must be sealed from evil hands at all costs, which is precisely why the elemental gems were scattered in the first place, because that's usually how these things work.

These are just some of my ideas mind you, and are not set in stone.
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Karma
 Posted: Jan 7 2015, 08:21 PM
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We are now Zeldaverse apparently lol.

But taking this more seriously, the temples-related-to-the-Rainbow elements are cool and all but I have a few questions. Namely...did the Rainbow exist before the IGNO cataclysm? I can't remember, but if it didn't exist before the IGNO apocalypse, and these buildings are supposed to be remnants of Ancient IGNOland (aka pre-apocalypse) then why did they exist in the first place? There wouldn't be any Rainbow/associated colors and elements TO worship/revere/house.

I can't remember the story origin of the Rainbow so I could be wrong on that one. Assuming it was basically created at the moment SG2Tiger started existing and re-made the world though, that means a few possibilities for these temples:

1) They spontaneously spawned at the world creation, in response to or as a repository for each related color's power

2) Similar to #1 except instead of temple-looking temples growing out of nowhere, each elemental power "took over" a pre-existing structure from the previous world and reinforced it based on its powers, but didn't really transform it (ex. the metal element is attracted to a car factory or something and begins to reside there, building up excess power, whatever). This means that although they would be 'temples' in the sense that it is the ultimate source of these powers/the best place to be closest to them/potentially even a place of worship for them, they would also not appear as literal ancient structures like pyramids or whatever, but instead take on a 'modern' look (old skyscrapers, factories, historical buildings, subway systems, famous parks, sunken air carriers, etc). Possibly could also just 'take over' existing natural wonders or structures as well (ex. 'Earth Temple' actually being a massive subterranean cave system or something).

All the temples sound cool, but regarding the Shadow temple residing in my own country...while I agree it probably has lots of unfriendly and undead denizens, I think a large part of the danger would also be magic. While all the elements have some degree of magic associated with it (usually related elemental magic) shadow is the one most closely associated with the arcane in general, and not just generic 'shadow magic.' It's probably packed with illusions and wards and lots of trickery to get you lost, so even if you can manage the undead, you could waste away and not find your way out. Other wandering dangers might include arcane constructs and magically enchanted items or statues that super want to kill you. Additionally, it's probably guarded by warding spells to keep it from being noticed, which is why even the more solitary inhabitants of the Deadwoods tend to not realize it's there...the spells will make you forget it as soon as you walk away, or simply keep you from being able to focus on it or notice it's there even if it's right in front of you (sort of like a distraction spell, your gaze just slides right away from it). Generally speaking this is the type of thing that can be overcome, especially by a skilled caster like Karma or Reese, but only if they knew what they were looking for to dispel to begin with, so if they're not aware they need to magically block an effect they probably won't notice enough to do so. If you CAN see through the illusions, it means the temple is letting you in, which means you're probably intended to be dinner. Lucky you.

~VelkynKarma
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Esjitu
 Posted: Jan 8 2015, 11:47 PM
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QUOTE (Karma @ Jan 7 2015, 07:21 PM)
We are now Zeldaverse apparently lol.

This is why I am trying to come up with unique names for the temples besides just [element] Temple >.>;


QUOTE (Karma)
But taking this more seriously, the temples-related-to-the-Rainbow elements are cool and all but I have a few questions. Namely...did the Rainbow exist before the IGNO cataclysm? I can't remember, but if it didn't exist before the IGNO apocalypse, and these buildings are supposed to be remnants of Ancient IGNOland (aka pre-apocalypse) then why did they exist in the first place? There wouldn't be any Rainbow/associated colors and elements TO worship/revere/house.

You're remembering right, basically the way the story is now SG2 created the Rainbow when she revived the world. But I've been wanting to rewrite that a bit for the past few weeks after talking some stuff over with Lemmy (but, at the time, I was busy with the Christmas Story). The way I see it now is that after the world was destroyed SG2 (born of a combination of Pink's and the Rainbow's energy) harnessed its power to reform the world, so the Rainbow has existed since long before then. Thus the temples too have existed for a long time, and survived the cataclysm largely intact (though they have become more like temple ruins than temples, the elemental energies probably protected them a good deal).

QUOTE (Karma)
2) Similar to #1 except instead of temple-looking temples growing out of nowhere, each elemental power "took over" a pre-existing structure from the previous world and reinforced it based on its powers, but didn't really transform it (ex. the metal element is attracted to a car factory or something and begins to reside there, building up excess power, whatever). This means that although they would be 'temples' in the sense that it is the ultimate source of these powers/the best place to be closest to them/potentially even a place of worship for them, they would also not appear as literal ancient structures like pyramids or whatever, but instead take on a 'modern' look (old skyscrapers, factories, historical buildings, subway systems, famous parks, sunken air carriers, etc). Possibly could also just 'take over' existing natural wonders or structures as well (ex. 'Earth Temple' actually being a massive subterranean cave system or something).

I think this is an interesting idea, but ultimately not what I want to go with. The idea of sprawling ancient temples with secrets that have been lost to modern history captures my imagination in a strong way. But hold onto that one, it sounds like it could be a neat premise for an original story :)

QUOTE (Karma)
All the temples sound cool, but regarding the Shadow temple residing in my own country...while I agree it probably has lots of unfriendly and undead denizens, I think a large part of the danger would also be magic. While all the elements have some degree of magic associated with it (usually related elemental magic) shadow is the one most closely associated with the arcane in general, and not just generic 'shadow magic.' It's probably packed with illusions and wards and lots of trickery to get you lost, so even if you can manage the undead, you could waste away and not find your way out. Other wandering dangers might include arcane constructs and magically enchanted items or statues that super want to kill you. Additionally, it's probably guarded by warding spells to keep it from being noticed, which is why even the more solitary inhabitants of the Deadwoods tend to not realize it's there...the spells will make you forget it as soon as you walk away, or simply keep you from being able to focus on it or notice it's there even if it's right in front of you (sort of like a distraction spell, your gaze just slides right away from it). Generally speaking this is the type of thing that can be overcome, especially by a skilled caster like Karma or Reese, but only if they knew what they were looking for to dispel to begin with, so if they're not aware they need to magically block an effect they probably won't notice enough to do so. If you CAN see through the illusions, it means the temple is letting you in, which means you're probably intended to be dinner. Lucky you.

I approve of all of this. It would also provide some nice parallels between the Shadow and Light temples (as the two strongest elements) in that both employ some natural defense mechanism to prevent travelers from finding it besides just 'hidden deep in the wilderness somewhere'.
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Karma
 Posted: Jan 10 2015, 07:44 PM
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Well as far as the naming aspect goes, you could always name them after different traits they represent. Their color, for example (Red Temple, Black Temple, etc), or play off that and use other colored things, like gem/stone colors (Obsidian Temple, Sapphire Temple, etc). Which might play back into you mentioning each one has a stone that has something to do with the Rainbow's power?

You could also reference the elements differently without calling it out directly. Ex. Shadow Temple would house illusions, arcane magic, and...shadows...and undead things, so you could always play off those instead. The Temple of the Dead, Temple of Illusions, Lurker's Temple, etc etc. Lightning might become Temple of the Storms. The water one might be Temple of the Abyss. Etc, etc. This one might take a bit more work since you'd have to identify key traits for each element and then find synonyms or alternatives for it, but I think you'd have more unique sounding temples in the long run that aren't blandly labeled '[Element] Temple.' People could take a guess at what's inside without it being TOO obvious.

Or, you could just use the locations and/or people closely related to it at the time of its building. Name each temple after the priest/builder/discoverer of each individual element, or after where it's located, like you see with a lot of our own religious structures. Again, more difficult because you'd have to construct LORE around each of those people and/or locations that have probably since changed/been destroyed...but it might also provide interesting ideas for the future too.

Like, was the Rainbow found all at once, or was each color/noncolor found individually by somebody or created based off of their skills? I mean, if Pink is an individual but somehow desires to add her own color to the Rainbow--basically a religion and source of power--then it stands to reason the other colors could have appeared the same way, right? Only perhaps a long time ago they combined their powers for goodness instead of bad. (I recently read a series of books, called the Old Kingdom trilogy, with a similar premise...necromancers would have these sets of magical bells that each did a specific magical task to help control the undead, and each bell had a name--which was actually the name of an ancient being that helped found the world thousands and thousands of years ago with the same specific ability the bells named after them now possess, but people had forgotten the founders since then and just knew the bell names. They were preserved but in a forgotten way, if that makes sense). And if there are ancient color-founders, what happened to them? Is it possible they still exist somewhere and just retreated? Have they died, and do they have decedents? Did they get absorbed into the Rainbow? Is it possible they could show up again, in these temples or otherwise? Could they be corrupted and serve as potential enemies/bosses in the future? Etc, etc.

Regarding the Light and Dark temples paralleling each other...I feel like while the shadow temple would resort to getting rid of people through trickery, the Light temple would be a lot more forthright about it? Like, outright forcing all but the strongest-willed people, or people prepared to counter its ability, to turn around and walk away--although as a protection to the people trying to get in, because they're too weak-willed to handle the Temple's interior. Just, when I think about it I'm reminded of one early scene in SPN--the main chars are being followed by a force they think is a demon, and use a psychic to try and contact it to figure out who exactly is following them. They get a name (Castiel--before he has his host), and this entity immediately warns them to stop trying to look at me and figure out what I am it will hurt you, I'm serious. The psychic doesn't listen and digs herself in deeper with her psychic search--and ends up looking upon the full might of an unrestrained angel, which is so overpowering for her puny human soul it burns her eyes out. (Cas felt sorry for it later, but implied only certain types of people could look upon the actual undisguised/uncloaked form of an angel without injury). Now, granted, we don't have to get quite as drastic as THAT, but unusual (and distracting) maladies could happen if you try to get too close--like being blinded by the light, or a sudden awe-inspiring terror that makes you turn back. As long as it's caused out of "kindness" rather than trickery or malevolence (like the shadow temple is more inclined to be) I think it'd be a good offset to shadow.

~VelkynKarma
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Esjitu
 Posted: Jan 12 2015, 02:49 PM
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QUOTE (Karma @ Jan 10 2015, 06:44 PM)
Well as far as the naming aspect goes, you could always name them after different traits they represent. Their color, for example (Red Temple, Black Temple, etc), or play off that and use other colored things, like gem/stone colors (Obsidian Temple, Sapphire Temple, etc). Which might play back into you mentioning each one has a stone that has something to do with the Rainbow's power?

I kinda like this idea. Only I don't want to overuse the word 'temple' either, so we'd probably mix it up with the occasional 'shrine' or 'sanctuary' and the like. But the stone names is an interesting idea that it may be worth looking into...

QUOTE (Karma)
Or, you could just use the locations and/or people closely related to it at the time of its building. Name each temple after the priest/builder/discoverer of each individual element, or after where it's located, like you see with a lot of our own religious structures. Again, more difficult because you'd have to construct LORE around each of those people and/or locations that have probably since changed/been destroyed...but it might also provide interesting ideas for the future too.

Like, was the Rainbow found all at once, or was each color/noncolor found individually by somebody or created based off of their skills? I mean, if Pink is an individual but somehow desires to add her own color to the Rainbow--basically a religion and source of power--then it stands to reason the other colors could have appeared the same way, right? Only perhaps a long time ago they combined their powers for goodness instead of bad. (I recently read a series of books, called the Old Kingdom trilogy, with a similar premise...necromancers would have these sets of magical bells that each did a specific magical task to help control the undead, and each bell had a name--which was actually the name of an ancient being that helped found the world thousands and thousands of years ago with the same specific ability the bells named after them now possess, but people had forgotten the founders since then and just knew the bell names. They were preserved but in a forgotten way, if that makes sense). And if there are ancient color-founders, what happened to them? Is it possible they still exist somewhere and just retreated? Have they died, and do they have decedents? Did they get absorbed into the Rainbow? Is it possible they could show up again, in these temples or otherwise? Could they be corrupted and serve as potential enemies/bosses in the future? Etc, etc.

This is something I've been thinking on for the past few days (why I don't like to reply right away) and I do like the idea of having people in the past who had some kind of significance for each element. The problem is this would require a lot of thought and worldbuilding to plan out, but brainstorming is what these threads are all about, so why not? I think the main thing we need to consider when developing BC (Before Cataclysm) lore is that...we really don't have a timeline for IGNOLand. And I don't think we need something as strict as [x] happened in [y] year, I think a very basic frame of reference is important. Like, by comparing a point in time of IGNOLand to a point in the history of our real world...for instance, we define what happened during a period in IGNOLand comparable to civilization in Ancient Greece, or something. Some kind of concrete point we can use to compare and better visualize how advanced the world was at that time, assuming IGNOLand developed along similar lines to our real world (evolution, cave people, early civilizations, etc). It's just kind of difficult to think about the backstory so long ago without having a good frame of mind to place it in.

That said, there are really two ways we can go - either the Rainbow always existed since the birth of the world and we use something similar to the still-needs-to-be-retconned origin story:

QUOTE (Origin Story)
As it began to recognize its abilities, the tiger sought to learn more about its own existence as life began to evolve and take shape in the centuries that followed. In honor of the elements used to give shape to the world, the tiger created a brilliant glowing arch in the sky which shone with the seven colors symbolizing nature - the reds and oranges of the sun and flame, yellow for the light it gives, green for the life-giving plants, the blue of the sky and sea, and the indigoes and purples of dusk. It became known as The Rainbow, and was revered by the primitive peoples of the world as holy.


OR we could go closer to what you said, and have the Rainbow be created later, by the power of 'ordinary' people. To paraphrase some of the disjointed ideas I mentioned in our email, there are a lot of ancient stories from old-world cultures created to explain the world around us. For instance, there may be a story about a great hero, and his great heroic deeds, and how when he died he ended up becoming a constellation. Or such a story could be used to explain concepts like 'why does it rain' or 'why does that animal make that sound' or anything of that nature. Those sorts of stories exist in many different real-world cultures to explain the world to people who didn't yet know how to science.

Well, IGNOLand is more about magic than science, so I don't see why we couldn't take a story along those same lines for 'why is there a rainbow' instead of being nofunrobot.jpg and saying 'refraction of light etc etc'. Because obviously to us, the Rainbow is much more!! So perhaps the same sort of ancient explanation story about heroes who did a thing and thus the Rainbow was created would be an interesting route to explore. Heroes like Heracles or Perseus who did awesome things and became legendary for them. Only these particular awesome things would have been related to a specific element, which in turn would become associated with a color in the Rainbow (ice and metal will either need to be excluded or just be considered subcategories of water and earth respectively). I kinda like the individual-heroes-with-separate-stories angle more than the idea of having 9 legendary heroes all around at the same time combining their powers to create it, but that's just me.

Also something we would need to consider is...if these heroes were in part responsible for the creation of the Rainbow, what were the elemental forces like before it? Were they just inherently natural - like fire and the sea and the earth and the wind - and people just could not use magical element bending powers until the Rainbow came along? But these heroes did something to become associated with these forces and sort of 'gifted' it to other people? It's been a while since I saw it, but the Legend of Korra story of the first Avatar, Wan, had a similar premise I believe, in that the elements were originally only possessed by the Lion Turtles but then Wan did some stuff and then people started being born with the natural ability of bending. But obviously, those forces still existed before humans could manipulate them, so maybe it's more that the Rainbow expanded the elements to all, rather than is directly responsible for creating them? I dunno, it's all a very rough tangle of ideas in my head, like I said we would really need to sit down and work out an explanation. However, I do think it's a good idea to be thinking critically like this and expanding our world's backstory more, beyond just the whole conflict with Pink.
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Esjitu
 Posted: Jan 18 2015, 02:00 PM
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Posting more emails with Karma to open up a wider discussion.

QUOTE (Karma)
That said, I was also thinking: why would these temples exist to begin with? And I was wondering--if they are built by a person who more or less is responsible for that element getting its spot in the Rainbow, what if it was intended to be a place of teaching? Like, you have this one person who discovers Fire manipulation--probably the natural energy was always there but s/he was the first one to discover its manipulation, create the spell sets, discover the mental/physical upgrades it tends to offer, etc. Afterwards, in addition to doing whatever legendary thing really gives them that "place" in the Rainbow, what if they set up a place to teach their hard-discovered knowledge to new followers--to teach them how to follow the path of Fire properly, how to not hurt themselves, how to be the most efficient with it, etc? It might have also been a way to FIND people naturally gifted with fire (probably at the time there were no "natural firebrands," but people might have been somewhat gifted at learning it, which means they would still be naturally inclined towards fire). Etc. These schools of magic end up guiding people towards better control and eventually their descendents more or less naturally have it in them to be "firebrands." But think of the things we could probably LEARN if we went in there then--probably a LOT of knowledge was lost with the cataclysm and we probably only understand a mere fraction of what there really is to know about the elemental lineups today.

QUOTE (SG2)
I've really come to like the idea of there being those sort of sage/precursors like we talked about, so going along those lines I think the teaching aspect could be interesting for SOME of them, but it's probably different for each temple. Maybe some of them were in fact schools, or other facilities that were actively USED by living people during that era and were just forgotten and abandoned with time. But some of them, on the same token, were probably built along the lines of more traditional game temples/shrines, to honor those heroes (especially after their deaths), or serve as places of worship for the Rainbow - like how many churches are named for a particular Saint, and may put some emphasis on honoring them, but that's not actually who you're there to worship, you're worshipping God. On the same token, you'd be building such a temple/shrine to worship the Rainbow, but it could be themed around a patron sage in particular, especially if it's built in their hometown or somewhere that was significant to that person in their lifetime. So it would probably vary - another reason to avoid the generic 'temple' suffix (it just makes it easier for general chatting XD), because they could be ruins of ANY kind, just associated with a particular element and/or person in some way.

If you examine a lot of dungeons in games like Zelda, even if they're called 'dungeons' or 'temples' you can usually look closer and get a feel for what actual function they served when they were built. Ex. the Shadow Temple is more of a torture chamber than a place of worship, one of the dungeons in Skyward Sword was a factory in the past (it involves some time manipulation mechanics, in the present it's all abandoned and buried in sand but in the past it's fully-functional), or you have things like mines or abandoned houses or prisons, all sorts of things. So we could probably think of a variety of explanations for what are effectively just 'ruins' in our post-cataclysm world...maybe some of them were schools or dojos or other places of learning, maybe some of them WERE actual temples meant for worship, maybe some are just straight-up tombs built to pay respects. They would all probably house elemental gems just because these places so closely associated with an element/person make the most SENSE as somewhere to keep such a relic...even if they weren't built with the intention of being hidden or secret in the past. I can absolutely see a shrine of some kind with an elemental gem on full display because at one time it was just seen as a place of respect and worship, and the people who built it/put the gem there were probably not thinking 'I bet someone would totally love to come steal this thing someday'. Or maybe they were thinking exactly that, which is why there'd be traps and shit built to protect it. I dunno. There are a lot of options XD
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